June 26, 2012
Help Wanted on Immigration
One of the arguments made against accepting illegal immigrants in the U.S. is that they are taking the jobs of American citizens. Those arguing against that line of thinking have always maintained that many of the jobs being taken are those that Americans are unwilling to do. Based on evidence from states on the coasts, Georgia and Washington, the latter view may be correct.
Georgia Governor Nathan Deal was criticized after speaking at a Georgia Farm Bureau luncheon in February for not seeking changes to that state’s strict anti-illegal immigration law, which has reduced the numbers of people working in the fields. Jobs left open by illegal immigrants have not been filled by others who may legally work in Georgia.
"I don’t know if it is one of those issues that he thinks has gone away and is no longer important," Gary Paulk, a farmer who served as campaign chairman for Mr. Deal in Irwin County, told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. "I know the issue has not gone away. … It’s an issue for farmers — they are not going to be able to have enough help."
In Washington, it’s a similar story. According to The Seattle Times, asparagus farmers left about 10 percent of this year’s crop in the field because of a worker shortage. An even larger number of workers will be needed to bring in the state’s cherry crop, which is looking at a record harvest.
"I think we are all terrified," B.J. Thurlby, president of the Washington State Fruit Commission and Northwest Cherry Growers, told the Times.
The picture on illegal immigration became a bit muddier yesterday as the Supreme Court overturned all but one provision of Arizona’s strict anti-immigration law. That lone provision, which allows police officers to check a person’s documentation, may be contested once it takes effect.
Following the ruling, the Department of Homeland Security decided to discontinue a program that deputizes local officials to make immigration-related arrests. The federal government said the program was "not useful" in states with similar laws to Arizona.
The federal government has deported record numbers of illegal aliens since President Obama came into office.
- Deal: No plans to change immigration law – Atlanta Journal-Constitution
- Growers Need More Workers To Harvest Vidalia Onions – WXIA-TV/Georgia Farm Bureau
- Plenty of asparagus, few workers to pick it – The Seattle Times
- States face uphill climb on immigration enforcement after court ruling, DHS shift – Fox News
- Report: Deportations hit record number – Politico
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Discussion Questions
Discussion Questions: How do you see the current debate over immigration affecting the retail industry? What needs to be done to fix the problem?
Poll
As the Supreme Court succinctly summed matters up, the Federal Government drives immigration policy. Get the politics out of immigration, and effectively promote what has been a hallmark of this country’s success for the past 200+ years — offer individuals a path to citizenship.
For those who do not choose a path to citizenship, create a path for H1 Visa usage. Running a massive and complex economy like the U.S. takes all types of immigrants — highly educated engineers, technicians, mathematicians, and scientists, as well as honest, hard-working employees willing to enter the fields and factories that need their skills.
Having these people on a path to paying into the tax base enriches this country. And, by having people properly registered with Immigration Services, we create a level, competitive playing field.
Congress needs to “man/woman” up, and permit the proper laws to be written. Then, the Executive Branch has to properly enforce the laws — stop playing political gamesmanship on both sides of the aisle.
The evidence is clear that undocumented workers have been an instrumental component of the U.S. agriculture business, providing labor at a price that growers can afford to compete and be profitable. Without these workers, produce is left in the fields to rot as US workers are not willing to do the work at labor rates needed for the growers to stay in business.
It is also clear that the U.S. immigration enforcement and laws are woefully deficient. Sadly, the current political climate is not conducive to correcting either deficiency. The Obama administration is not anxious to overtly enforce current laws, made evident by their announcement yesterday that they will no longer cooperate with Arizona local law enforcement on immigration matters, and they are certainly not motivated politically to introduce any new legislation that may be construed negatively by their political base.
On the other hand, Republicans, while having talked about tighter border controls are not about to take the political risk of pushing new legislation that may further position them as “anti-immigrant” as the November election draws near. So we are likely stuck with the dysfunctional system we have until after the first of the year.
If and when the Congress does move forward on immigration reform, it needs to include a defined policy on temporary worker visas, so that the labor needed to grow and harvest US produce is restored, without turning a blind eye to hundreds of thousands who are in the US without the proper identification or controls.
Retailers and farmers need labor. As long as we allow people to retire on welfare, unemployment, and Food Stamps, they have no incentive to work. Therefore we must rely on immigrant labor. What we should probably do is to require any able bodied person receiving public assistance to work for their entitlements. The agriculture industry is a great way to introduce them to the working world. Most likely they will find the work unsuitable to them and simply opt in to other kinds of jobs. That means we still will need immigrant labor.
Many of us have grown dependent on hiring cheap immigrant labor and we don’t want to give them up. Instead paying thousands of dollars to be smuggled into the USA, could we just allow immigrants to enter legally and charge them an entrance fee of a few thousand? They could get a green card and a temporary catastrophic health plan.
On the question of how we can have labor shortages during a time of high unemployment, I believe that the core issue is a cultural cancer called entitlement. Immigrants don’t have that illness, never have. This country has always prospered from the influx of people willing to do whatever they could to improve their lot in life.
Ancient Rome collapsed after the generations who inherited the most powerful civilization in the world got fat and lazy. We have an obesity epidemic among a population brain washed by the likes of Fred Rogers, who convinced kids and their parents that losers deserve a trophy.
We need immigrants, but we have a hard time recognizing that, especially at the government level. Wouldn’t more legitimate workers paying taxes help our bankrupt government agencies? We should be able to more quickly tackle the fiscal deficit problem than the core cultural problems. I don’t understand why our leaders are waiting.
I am not sure what the effect will be on retailers as a whole but as a country, we need to determine what the best course is and pass the laws necessary to codify the position and than enforce the law.
To address the specific question George poses (as opposed to the broader philosophical discussion of immigration in general) I submit that we must back up a step. Eliminate the availability of immigrant labor from the equation all together and then re-pose the question — “why don’t we have enough people to do these jobs?”
The answer is no further away than Dr. Maslow’s well documented hierarchy of needs. People are averse to starvation and similar hardships. Therefore they endeavor to avoid these conditions. That typically manifests itself in work.
But when alternative sources of sustenance are made available, the individual is then presented with a decision or choice hierarchy. Do I like the level of sustenance available through “Source A” better than I like the level of sustenance available through “Job B” minus the effort Job B requires?
The result of this equation in America is the number of people dependent on our current social sustenance programs MINUS (and this is a very important minus!) those who are truly incapable of performing some sort of work in return for goods and services. The resulting number will roughly equal the illegal immigrant labor pool required to do America’s business.
It doesn’t look like there is much hope of passing any meaningful legislation until after the next election. Our politicians are only concerned about getting elected or re-elected.
It shouldn’t be that hard to figure out what needs to be done, but getting the necessary votes is another matter. As has been pointed out, we need the immigrant workers for many jobs that our citizens won’t do. But more importantly, we need to get them to pay their fair share of taxes to contribute to our economy instead of continuing to help drain it. Don’t try to run them off, but welcome them as contributing members of our society with all the responsibilities that entails.
If they were really only taking “jobs that Americans won’t do” that would be fine. They are also taking jobs Americans will do, driving down the pay scale. There is already a path to citizenship. It’s called get in line like people have been doing for a hundred years!
I’m going to call these anecdotes bunk. Labor markets like any other market are subject to the laws of supply and demand. The real reason Americans won’t do these jobs is not a matter of pride, it is a matter of pay. Remove the illegal aliens from the labor pool and it shrinks the supply of labor which will drive the price of labor up over time to the point where Americans will enter this workforce. These jobs, at this time, do not pay enough to support an American way of life and we are currently exploiting foreign labor which largely sends their incomes to lower cost countries where their family resides. The pay these illegals earn is sufficient in these other countries to support their families yet the income earners here must live here in abject poverty to support this system. The current system is immoral no matter how one looks at it; for Americans and illegals.
It is important to note that these laws pertain to illegal immigrants. The decision to not harvest vegetables is strictly one of economics. Any of these farmers could have hired more workers, but just paid them a legal, minimum wage. They decided not to, and instead leave the crop unharvested. Immigration is simply a reflection of the deployment of scarce human resources at the existing wage rate. Either the employers pay a good enough wage for legal immigrants, and adjust their prices accordingly, or they focus their resources on other farming/manufacturing.
Our country has a massive labor shortage all over. Even low skilled, high paying jobs go unfilled because people have too many entitlements. Why go work when you can collect 99 weeks of unemployment? Everyone I know who collects unemployment has no intention of working until the benefits run out. People get so much in Food Stamps they become overweight and can still sell or barter the remainder. Why pick blueberries in Georgia when you can make the same money laying in a hammock drinking beer?
Hunger and fear are great motivators. If people are hungry and afraid, they will work. Immigrants are often our hardest working residents. My guess is the unemployment rate among illegal immigrants is about zero.
“The federal government has deported record numbers of illegal aliens since president Obama came into office.” Thanks for the update. It’s because more aliens were allowed to cross the border illegally than ever before. Let more in, send more home. This administration is fooling no one.
Why would any retailer knowingly employ an illegal alien? To save money by paying them under the table? Any retailer caught doing so should be punished under the law.
There is no “debate,” George. As a college debater, I know better than to debate an issue where there is only one germane argument. “Is you is or is you ain’t?,” as asked by Louis Jordan in his 1944 song. Are you legal or not? Yes or no.
This is not about immigration. This is about retailers following the rule of law. When one is debating and clearly losing, one tries to introduce shades of gray into the argument in order to ameliorate or blur their stance. And that’s what’s happening here.
There is no such thing as an “undocumented worker.” They are illegal, and no amount of cute verbal gymnastics changes that. Retailers can hire them and break this administration’s unenforced law. Retailers can also can hire them and add to their customers’ tax burdens and to their own taxes as well. While retailers save up front by hiring illegals, they pay later in reduced sales and increased taxes.
Providing people of any social status a lower than cost-of-living wage is a clear demonstration of just how poorly we as a nation manage many of our businesses. It is a cannibalistic business practice that only takes from the business being managed without consideration for any of the ramifications of this process. When executive management’s profit goals supersede the needs of the company, the employees, and the customers, the inevitable end of the corporation is only a matter of time.
As for the illegal immigrants residing within the USA, as a taxpayer I can no longer afford the higher prices forced on me by their unsupported and unpaid use of the country’s health system, paid insurance rate burdens, crime and criminal costs, and free education costs. I simply want them out of my pocket and returned to their home country at their own expense now. The cost savings would be hundreds of billions of dollars a year to all of us and thousands of dollars a year to the legal taxpaying citizens. As for who will fight our wars and pick our crops, well I guess we’ll have to. Oh well!
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As the Supreme Court succinctly summed matters up, the Federal Government drives immigration policy. Get the politics out of immigration, and effectively promote what has been a hallmark of this country’s success for the past 200+ years — offer individuals a path to citizenship.
For those who do not choose a path to citizenship, create a path for H1 Visa usage. Running a massive and complex economy like the U.S. takes all types of immigrants — highly educated engineers, technicians, mathematicians, and scientists, as well as honest, hard-working employees willing to enter the fields and factories that need their skills.
Having these people on a path to paying into the tax base enriches this country. And, by having people properly registered with Immigration Services, we create a level, competitive playing field.
Congress needs to “man/woman” up, and permit the proper laws to be written. Then, the Executive Branch has to properly enforce the laws — stop playing political gamesmanship on both sides of the aisle.
The evidence is clear that undocumented workers have been an instrumental component of the U.S. agriculture business, providing labor at a price that growers can afford to compete and be profitable. Without these workers, produce is left in the fields to rot as US workers are not willing to do the work at labor rates needed for the growers to stay in business.
It is also clear that the U.S. immigration enforcement and laws are woefully deficient. Sadly, the current political climate is not conducive to correcting either deficiency. The Obama administration is not anxious to overtly enforce current laws, made evident by their announcement yesterday that they will no longer cooperate with Arizona local law enforcement on immigration matters, and they are certainly not motivated politically to introduce any new legislation that may be construed negatively by their political base.
On the other hand, Republicans, while having talked about tighter border controls are not about to take the political risk of pushing new legislation that may further position them as “anti-immigrant” as the November election draws near. So we are likely stuck with the dysfunctional system we have until after the first of the year.
If and when the Congress does move forward on immigration reform, it needs to include a defined policy on temporary worker visas, so that the labor needed to grow and harvest US produce is restored, without turning a blind eye to hundreds of thousands who are in the US without the proper identification or controls.
Retailers and farmers need labor. As long as we allow people to retire on welfare, unemployment, and Food Stamps, they have no incentive to work. Therefore we must rely on immigrant labor. What we should probably do is to require any able bodied person receiving public assistance to work for their entitlements. The agriculture industry is a great way to introduce them to the working world. Most likely they will find the work unsuitable to them and simply opt in to other kinds of jobs. That means we still will need immigrant labor.
Many of us have grown dependent on hiring cheap immigrant labor and we don’t want to give them up. Instead paying thousands of dollars to be smuggled into the USA, could we just allow immigrants to enter legally and charge them an entrance fee of a few thousand? They could get a green card and a temporary catastrophic health plan.
On the question of how we can have labor shortages during a time of high unemployment, I believe that the core issue is a cultural cancer called entitlement. Immigrants don’t have that illness, never have. This country has always prospered from the influx of people willing to do whatever they could to improve their lot in life.
Ancient Rome collapsed after the generations who inherited the most powerful civilization in the world got fat and lazy. We have an obesity epidemic among a population brain washed by the likes of Fred Rogers, who convinced kids and their parents that losers deserve a trophy.
We need immigrants, but we have a hard time recognizing that, especially at the government level. Wouldn’t more legitimate workers paying taxes help our bankrupt government agencies? We should be able to more quickly tackle the fiscal deficit problem than the core cultural problems. I don’t understand why our leaders are waiting.
I am not sure what the effect will be on retailers as a whole but as a country, we need to determine what the best course is and pass the laws necessary to codify the position and than enforce the law.
To address the specific question George poses (as opposed to the broader philosophical discussion of immigration in general) I submit that we must back up a step. Eliminate the availability of immigrant labor from the equation all together and then re-pose the question — “why don’t we have enough people to do these jobs?”
The answer is no further away than Dr. Maslow’s well documented hierarchy of needs. People are averse to starvation and similar hardships. Therefore they endeavor to avoid these conditions. That typically manifests itself in work.
But when alternative sources of sustenance are made available, the individual is then presented with a decision or choice hierarchy. Do I like the level of sustenance available through “Source A” better than I like the level of sustenance available through “Job B” minus the effort Job B requires?
The result of this equation in America is the number of people dependent on our current social sustenance programs MINUS (and this is a very important minus!) those who are truly incapable of performing some sort of work in return for goods and services. The resulting number will roughly equal the illegal immigrant labor pool required to do America’s business.
It doesn’t look like there is much hope of passing any meaningful legislation until after the next election. Our politicians are only concerned about getting elected or re-elected.
It shouldn’t be that hard to figure out what needs to be done, but getting the necessary votes is another matter. As has been pointed out, we need the immigrant workers for many jobs that our citizens won’t do. But more importantly, we need to get them to pay their fair share of taxes to contribute to our economy instead of continuing to help drain it. Don’t try to run them off, but welcome them as contributing members of our society with all the responsibilities that entails.
If they were really only taking “jobs that Americans won’t do” that would be fine. They are also taking jobs Americans will do, driving down the pay scale. There is already a path to citizenship. It’s called get in line like people have been doing for a hundred years!
I’m going to call these anecdotes bunk. Labor markets like any other market are subject to the laws of supply and demand. The real reason Americans won’t do these jobs is not a matter of pride, it is a matter of pay. Remove the illegal aliens from the labor pool and it shrinks the supply of labor which will drive the price of labor up over time to the point where Americans will enter this workforce. These jobs, at this time, do not pay enough to support an American way of life and we are currently exploiting foreign labor which largely sends their incomes to lower cost countries where their family resides. The pay these illegals earn is sufficient in these other countries to support their families yet the income earners here must live here in abject poverty to support this system. The current system is immoral no matter how one looks at it; for Americans and illegals.
It is important to note that these laws pertain to illegal immigrants. The decision to not harvest vegetables is strictly one of economics. Any of these farmers could have hired more workers, but just paid them a legal, minimum wage. They decided not to, and instead leave the crop unharvested. Immigration is simply a reflection of the deployment of scarce human resources at the existing wage rate. Either the employers pay a good enough wage for legal immigrants, and adjust their prices accordingly, or they focus their resources on other farming/manufacturing.
Our country has a massive labor shortage all over. Even low skilled, high paying jobs go unfilled because people have too many entitlements. Why go work when you can collect 99 weeks of unemployment? Everyone I know who collects unemployment has no intention of working until the benefits run out. People get so much in Food Stamps they become overweight and can still sell or barter the remainder. Why pick blueberries in Georgia when you can make the same money laying in a hammock drinking beer?
Hunger and fear are great motivators. If people are hungry and afraid, they will work. Immigrants are often our hardest working residents. My guess is the unemployment rate among illegal immigrants is about zero.
“The federal government has deported record numbers of illegal aliens since president Obama came into office.” Thanks for the update. It’s because more aliens were allowed to cross the border illegally than ever before. Let more in, send more home. This administration is fooling no one.
Why would any retailer knowingly employ an illegal alien? To save money by paying them under the table? Any retailer caught doing so should be punished under the law.
There is no “debate,” George. As a college debater, I know better than to debate an issue where there is only one germane argument. “Is you is or is you ain’t?,” as asked by Louis Jordan in his 1944 song. Are you legal or not? Yes or no.
This is not about immigration. This is about retailers following the rule of law. When one is debating and clearly losing, one tries to introduce shades of gray into the argument in order to ameliorate or blur their stance. And that’s what’s happening here.
There is no such thing as an “undocumented worker.” They are illegal, and no amount of cute verbal gymnastics changes that. Retailers can hire them and break this administration’s unenforced law. Retailers can also can hire them and add to their customers’ tax burdens and to their own taxes as well. While retailers save up front by hiring illegals, they pay later in reduced sales and increased taxes.
Providing people of any social status a lower than cost-of-living wage is a clear demonstration of just how poorly we as a nation manage many of our businesses. It is a cannibalistic business practice that only takes from the business being managed without consideration for any of the ramifications of this process. When executive management’s profit goals supersede the needs of the company, the employees, and the customers, the inevitable end of the corporation is only a matter of time.
As for the illegal immigrants residing within the USA, as a taxpayer I can no longer afford the higher prices forced on me by their unsupported and unpaid use of the country’s health system, paid insurance rate burdens, crime and criminal costs, and free education costs. I simply want them out of my pocket and returned to their home country at their own expense now. The cost savings would be hundreds of billions of dollars a year to all of us and thousands of dollars a year to the legal taxpaying citizens. As for who will fight our wars and pick our crops, well I guess we’ll have to. Oh well!